Zimbabwe and the Question of Imperialism: A Discussion
Democracy Now!
The following interview was conducted June
26 on Democracy Now!, hosted by
Amy Goodman.
Voice of host Amy Goodman: In Zimbabwe, President
Robert Mugabe has come under widespread criticism for refusing to cancel a
run-off election scheduled for Friday. Opposition leader Morgan Tsvangirai won
the first round of elections in March but withdrew from the run-off late last
week. He has sought refuge in the Dutch embassy in Harare out of what he says
is concern for his life. We host a discussion on Zimbabwe with University of
Houston Professor, Gerald Horne, author of "From the Barrel of a Gun: The
United States and the War Against Zimbabwe, 1965-1980" and Syracuse University
University Professor, Horace Campbell, his latest article is titled,
"Pan-Africanists: Our collective duty to Zimbabwe."
Criticism of Zimbabwe's President Robert Mugabe and the
actions of his ruling Zanu PF party is growing. The most recent condemnation
comes from former South African President Nelson Mandela, who mourned the
"tragic failure of leadership" in Zimbabwe on Wednesday. They were the former
leader's first comments on the situation.
President Bush also criticized Mugabe Wednesday for defying
international pressure to cancel a run-off election scheduled for Friday.
Opposition leader Morgan Tsvangirai won the first round of elections
in March but withdrew from the run off late on Sunday and sought refuge in the
Dutch embassy in Harare out of what he says is concern for his safety. On
Wednesday he called for the African Union backed by the United Nations, to lead
a "transitional process" in Zimbabwe. He also emphasized that Friday's vote
would not be recognized.
But Zimbabwe's Electoral Commission has ruled that
Tsvangirai's withdrawal from the election last Sunday was filed too late and
has no legal force. Meanwhile at least 300 Harare residents have taken shelter
from the political violence at the South African embassy.
Today we host a discussion on Zimbabwe: We're joined in
Washington DC by Professor Gerald Horne. He is the Chair of History and African
American Studies at the University of Houston and the author of numerous books
including "From the Barrel of a Gun: The United States and the War Against
Zimbabwe, 1965-1980." Joining us on the phone from Syracuse, New York is
Professor Horace Campbell. He is Professor of African American Studies and
Politics at Syracuse University. He has written extensively about
Pan-Africanism and Zimbabwe.
Gerald Horne, Chair of History and African
American Studies at the University of Houston and the author of numerous books
including "From the Barrel of a Gun: The United States and the War Against
Zimbabwe, 1965-1980."
Horace Campbell, Professor of African American
Studies and Politics at Syracuse University. He has written extensively about
Pan-Africanism and Zimbabwe.
AMY GOODMAN: As we move now from
Iraq to Zimbabwe, Juan?
JUAN GONZALES: Well criticism of Zimbabwe's
President Robert Mugabe and the
actions of his ruling Zanu PF party is growing. The most recent condemnation
comes from former South African President Nelson Mandela who mourned the quote
tragic failure of leadership in Zimbabwe on Wednesday. They were the former
leaders first comments on the situation president Bush also criticized Mugabe
Wednesday for defying international pressure to cancel a runoff election scheduled
for Friday.
PRESIDENT BUSH: Friday's elections appear to be a
sham. You can't have free elections if a candidate is not allowed to campaign
freely and his supporters aren't allowed to campaign without fear of
intimidation-yet the Mugabe government has been intimidating the people on the
ground in Zimbabwe. And this is an incredibly sad development. I hope that the
AU will, at their meeting this weekend, continue to highlight the illegitimacy
of the elections, continue to remind the world that this election is not free,
and is not fair.
JUAN GONZALES: Opposition leader Morgan
Tsvangirai won the first round of elections in March but withdrew from the
runoff late on Sunday and sought refuge in the Dutch embassy in Harari out of
what he says is concern for his safety. On Wednesday he called for the African
Union backed the United Nations to lead a quote transitional process in
Zimbabwe. He also emphasized that Friday's vote would not be recognized.
TSVANGIRAI: That our decision to pull out of
this shame election was in the best interest of the people of Zimbabwe. Any
election conducted arrogantly, unilaterally on Friday will not be recognized by
the MDC, by Zimbabweans and by the world over.
JUAN GONZALES: But Zimbabwe's electoral
commission has ruled that Tsvangirai's withdrawal from the election last Sunday
was filed too late and has no legal force. Meanwhile at least 300 Harari
residents have taken shelter from the political violence at the South African
embassy.
MAN SPEAKING: My house is destroyed to the
ground level. And my whole apartment has been destroyed and looted, and my
family--I do not know where my family is right now. I don't know where my wife,
my kids.
AMY GOODMAN: Today, we host a discussion on
Zimbabwe. We're joined in Washington D.C. by Professor Gerald Horne, Chair of
History and African American Studies at the University of Houston and the
author of numerous books including "From the Barrel of a Gun, the United States
in the War Against Zimbabwe, 1965 to 1980." Joining us on the phone from
Syracuse is Professor Horace Campbell, Professor of African American Studies
and Politics at Syracuse University in New York, has written extensively about
Pan-Africanism and Zimbabwe. We welcome you both to Democracy Now! I want to
begin with Gerald Horne in Washington. Can you talk about what is happening in
Zimbabwe and the coverage of it, how we understand what is happening in
Zimbabwe in the United States?
GERALD HORNE: Well obviously what is happening
in Zimbabwe is quite tragic and I would hope some of the sympathy that is
extended to Zimbabwe could be extended as well to other African nations that do
not have white minorities. For example, the statement condemning or questioning
the Zimbabweans elections emerged from Swaziland, a South African nation that
is one of the last absolute monarchies on this small planet. Some might well
question why isn't Swaziland's human rights situation being interrogated and
investigated? A scant year ago in Nigeria, the continent's giant, you had
shambolic elections, had hundreds killed yet that barely registered a blip on
the international media. At least not in the North Atlantic. Many talk, perhaps
understandably, about the fact the President Mugabe has served as President
since 1980, but what about Omar Bongo of Gabon, a close ally of the U.S, an
oil-rich country in West Africa, which of course, he has served as president
since 1967? 13 years before Mugabe came into power. I mean, I could go on in
this vain, but I think the fact that thousands were killed in Zimbabwe in the
1980's and yet, he received a virtual knighthood from Queen Elizabeth and
received an honorary degree from Massachusetts, and yet, today in 2008, he is a
subject of international scorn after of course he expropriates some white
farmers, really speaks of profound racism in terms of how this issue has been
covered in the North Atlantic media.
JUAN GONZALES: Horace Campbell, I want to ask
about this issue. It does seem that the western media did not focus on Zimbabwe
at all until the expropriations began of land. But does that deal with-the land
of the white-minority there--but does that deal with the underlying class
conflicts that are obviously clearly percolating in reaching ahead right now in
the country?
HORACE CAMPBELL: Well, thank you for having me on
the show. First of all, I would say this platform on Democracy Now! is a
platform for the progressives, the left, and those who are involved in the
peace movement. Our discussions on what is going on in Zimbabwe or any other
part of Africa should be guided by how our solidarity with the peoples of
Zimbabwe, with the oppressed workers of Southern Africa, and in all parts of
Africa can assist our own struggle in this country against all forms of
oppression. And so, comparing Zimbabwean's oppression with other oppression in
Africa does not excuse the oppression of the Zimbabweans people by any means. I
think Gerald is very right about these oppressions across Africa, but
organizations in this country that are in solidarity with the peace movement across
the world ,that are in solidarity with the Zimbabwe people, should take the cue
from the Congress of South African Trade Union that is calling for a blockade
of Zimbabwe because of the oppression. And I think what distinguished Zimbabwe
from those countries that Gerald speaks about is that none of those countries
is representing themselves as being in the forefront of liberation. Robert
Mugabe and Zanu PF started out like they were Lumumba in the Congo. They ended
up like Mubutu, killing from the people, arrested opposition leaders, killing
people, calling homosexual pigs and dogs, and killing hundreds, tens of
thousands of people. 18% of the Zimbabwean people are unemployed. While the
stock exchange is the most successful in Africa. We on the left, in the peace
movement, we acknowledge that George Bush nor Brown have any moral authority to
criticize Zimbabwe because of the unjust war that they're fighting in Iraq and
Afghanistan. But having said that, we on the left and the progressives, we must
take the moral leadership in having solidarity with those opposition leaders,
those workers, those human rights workers in Zimbabwe and Southern Africa who
are being oppressed by the Mugabe government.
AMY GOODMAN: Your response, Gerald Horne?
GERALD HORNE: Well I think there is very much
to recommend with what Horace Campbell said. As a taxpayer to this government
here in Washington, my first approach must be this regime of George W. Bush.
And I think we have to question the hypocrisy of George Bush who has engaged in
questionable elections in Florida and Ohio, questioning the legitimacy of the
elections in Zimbabwe. More than that, if the situation in Zimbabwe is so
terrible, and I agree it is, why is it that the Bush administration continues
to send undocumented Zimbabwe workers back to Zimbabwe? There's been talk about
a so- called genocide unfolding in Zimbabwe, yet, you see the Gordon Brown
administration in London not giving asylum to Zimbabwe workers who are exiled
now in London. We talk about the Mugabe regime, but just the other day it was
revealed that Anglo American, the major transnational corporation with close
South African ties and headquarters in London, is about to make a $400 million
investment in Zimbabwe. Barclay's bank is in Zimbabwe. Rio Tinto-Zinc, the
major mineral conglomerate is in Zimbabwe. It seems to me in the first place,
we in the North Atlantic should be focusing on these kinds of contradictions
that we can affect and as the African National Congress has said, leave
Zimbabwe to the Zimbabwean people themselves.
AMY GOODMAN: We're going to go to a break and
we'll come back to this discussion. Our guests in Washington, Professor. Gerald
Horne, Professor of African Studies at the University of Houston, he has lived
in Zimbabwe, Professor Horace Campbell also joins us, professor of African-
American studies at Syracuse University. We will be back with them both in a
moment.
[music break]
AMY GOODMAN: This is democracy Now!,
democracynow.org, the war and peace report. We're talking about Zimbabwe.
Professor Gerald Horne of the University of Houston is in Washington, Professor
Horace Campbell of African American Studies and Political Science of Syracuse
University is speaking to us from Syracuse. If you could respond, Professor
Campbell, to what Gerald Horne said before the break.
HORACE CAMPBELL: Yes, I want to reiterate a point
that any kind of political work we do on Zimbabwe should assist us in educating
our people here so that when the Zimbabwe political leadership represents
itself to say that it is being persecuted because it expropriated the land of
the former white settlers, we have to interrogate what did the expropriation of
the land mean for the millions of Zimbabweans workers, small farmers. It is
very clear that the Zimbabwean people needed to reclaim the land from the white
settlers. But the Mugabe government, when he was receiving his knighthood from
the british government, never negotiated about the land because throughout the
period from 1980- 1992, Zimbabwe had the legal powers to be able to set in
motion the possibilities for strengthening the working peoples, the farm
workers, the women, the plantation and agricultural workers. And hen we speak
about land, we must understand that whether the land is owned by white farmers are
black farmers, the fundamental productivity on the land emanates from the labor
of the working people-working people. So our task is how is it we defend the
working people of Zimbabwe? The hundreds of thousands of workers who live on
the conditions of wretchedness, who have been exploited by the black capitalist
farmers, who are in the Zimbabwean government just as the whites have done. So
any kind of transition in Zimbabwe must involve strengthening the rights of the
workers, the women, and the use in Zimbabwe. I think that what Gerald said
should throw away all of the talk about Mugabe been against imperialism because
it was very clear that anglo- American, Barclay bank, and Rio-Tinto and diamond
dealers have made billions of dollars while Mugabe was talking about the land.
And what we're calling for is for any transitional period in Zimbabwe to be one
where there is intervention by the African Union so that the billions that have
been carried out by the ruling elements in Zimbabwe, that we do not have them
carried out repression of the workers with impunity and then stealing the money
as they have done the past 8-10 years.
JUAN GONZALES: Gerald Horne, I'd like to ask
you. Obviously Mugabe has been an icon and a hero, a giant in terms of the
liberation movements in Africa for decades. But your sense now, do you believe
that he still represents any forces for progress in Africa or has he gradually
transformed himself into a dictator?
GERALD HORNE: Well, I think that president
Mugabe is a force to be reckoned with in Zimbabwe. And I agree with those
leaders in the region who feel that he and his party must be contented with if
there is to be a settlement of this controversy in Zimbabwe. I should also say
that with regard to professor Campbell, I'm here not to carry a brief on OPS,
but they have argued they did not move on land reform before 1994, i.e. the
date of the South African elections, so as not to unsettle the situation in
neighboring South Africa, which of course has outstanding land claims of its own.
We all know there are more white farmers killed in South Africa than have been
killed in Zimbabwe. And likewise, there are outstanding land claims in
neighboring Namibia as well. I think it's understandable why there has been a
focus on on Zanu PF, but standing in the wings of the opposition of the MDC and
sadly, unfortunately, there has not been considerable focus on them such as
their leaders, Roy Bennet, a top leader, a former major land owner in Zimbabwe
who of course throttled an African leader on the floor of the Zimbabweans
parliament-I would of thought that kind of behavior would have ended in
independence in 1980. You have other leading Rhodesians in the leadership of
MDC. One thing that worries many of us is that if MDC does come to power, there
will be a split and quite frankly, they will pave the way for the rise of
certain retrograde elements like Roy Bennet come back into power. In some ways,
MDC, a trade union-led movement, is akin to solidarity in Poland which of
course paved the way for the present right wing in Poland to come to power in
Warsaw. So we have to be careful when we try to butt in to the internal affairs
of a sovereign state. I think our energies would be best served by putting
pressure on this government here in Washington and its comical sidekick in
London.
AMY GOODMAN: Professor Horace Campbell?
HORACE CAMPBELL: The intellectual subservience of
the MDC and the leadership ofthe MDC is clear to most workers in Southern
Africa. But this point in the history of Zimbabwe, the MDC doesn't have
political power. The social forces that are organized in Zimbabwe against the
government have thrown their weight behind the MDC at the present moment. The
Women of Zimbabwe rise, these are independent organizations, Padari, the
workers, agricultural and plantation workers. I do not think-we do not have the
right to say to the Zimbabwean workers that your under oppression and
therefore, we should decide for you because of the history of Mugabe's
relationship to the liberation movement, 28 years ago, then we should be saying
to you what your choices should be. In Southern Africa, the Congress of South
African Trade Union movement has called for a blockade of the Zimbabwean
government and is the Zimbabwe leadership and the Congress of South African
Trade Union which is the largest trade union movement in Southern Africa is a
movement which is calling for the isolation of Mugabe government. What we agree
with Gerald is on as the falling-the land question in Southern Africa is an
urgent question in the media, in south Africa, and in Zimbabwe. But having said
that, we must learn lessons from Zimbabwe. To say that when land his been
reclaimed it should not be reclaimed for rich, black farmers to replace white
farmers. Land when it is being reclaimed in South Africa or in Nambia should be
reclaimed in a condition where there is health and safety conditions for the
working people's. So yes, we should take lessons from Zimbabwe and we should
introduce new politics in Southern Africa that is coming out of the politics of
reconciliation. That no concept of victory should be victory which gives power
to one group over another there should be ways in which the transition towards
a new political dispersion-in south Africa it is one that strengthens the producing
classes, the small workers, farmers, students. And these are the forces that
have been repressed, brutalized, the trade union leaders that are in jail right
now in Zimbabwe should be released. Opposition leaders should be released.
Women should be released. Human rights workers should be released. So that yes,
we can criticize the leadership of the MDC and I have done so in my writing, in
my book, "Reclaiming Zimbabwe" but the government of Zimbabwe must now arise in
a situation where we provide leadership in a condition where 80% of the people
are unemployed, where women have been persecuted as prostitutes when a walk on
the streets. Were homosexuals have been called pigs and dogs and where men go
around trying to have sexual relations with young virgins saying this would
prevent HIV/AIDS. We need a new political leadership to go against this kind of
backwardness that came out of the kind of patriotic leadership that we had for
the past 28 years.
AMY GOODMAN: We wanted to bring South African
archbishop Desmond Tutu into this. He also came out forcefully against the
violence and intimidation in Zimbabwe speaking in Cape Town Tuesday, who warned
Mugabe should bend to international pressure or could risk facing universal
sanctions and could risk facing an international criminal court.
TUTU: We are seeing a country not just steadily, but
rapidly going down into chaos. The international community should, I believe,
had intervened long ago when some of us appeared for a peacekeeping force, to
ensure that people who are not intimidated, people are not attacked. And that
the conditions for a free and fair election would then have been sustained.
Now, I think obviously the effort should continue where we are hoping against
hope that good sense might get to prevail and that Mr.Mugabe would agree that
really his time is up. It's 20 years or more that he has been head of state. I
think they've got to tell him he still less the chance-if he continues and
everyone decides to grant his administration illegitimate, then he stands a
very very good chance of being arraigned before the ICC for human rights
violations.
AMY GOODMAN: Archbishop Desmond Tutu Gerald
Horne, your response both to Archbishop Desmond Tutu and Horace Campbell.
GERALD HORNE: Well obviously we have enormous
respect for Archbishop Desmond Tutu. But I must return to the question that
should occupy us in the North Atlantic. Which is why is it the Zimbabwe gets so
much focus and attention on this side of the Atlantic when Paul Biya, the
leader of Cameron a few weeks ago basically named himself President for life
and it barely registers a blip? Similar situation unfolding in Uganda with
Yoweri Museveni. I think part of the reason, not only the race and racism
question, there's also the question that many of the former Rhodesian have kith
and kin on the side of the Atlantic. The spouse of Henry Kissinger, the former
U.S. Secretary of State. The spouse of Chester Crocker, the former assistant
Secretary of State for Africa under the Reagan administration. Even some
distant relatives of George Washington for whom the city of which I'm sitting
is named. Ian Smith, the former Rhodesian leader of course has relatives in San
Diego. There were hundreds if not thousands of white mercenaries who flocked to
Rhodesia in the 1970's and 1980's to fight against liberation of that
particular country. And it befuddles and baffles me why this kind of basic
historical background is not integrated into the conversation, integrated into
the discourse on Zimbabwe. I think it gives a very bad impression on the
African continent which leads many Africans to consider their only focus on the
North Atlantic is on Zimbabwe because there is a white minority and that
perhaps explains to why there has been such a lethargy in responding to some of
the human rights violations that are unfolding in Zimbabwe. And until that kind
of situation is rectified, I dare say there will continue to be an uncivil
situation in Zimbabwe.
JUAN GONZALES: Gerald, all that being true and
we clearly recognize that disparity in approach and coverage, back in 2005,
there were massive forced relocations of hundreds of thousands of people by the
Mugabe government that really stunned people, even here in a progressive
community of the United States who have supported Mugabe and the past. Your
response to those relocations and again to the issue of whether the government
has increasingly become iron handed and dictatorial in dealing with its own
people?
GERALD HORNE: Well, those dislocations were
tragic and unfortunate. I know about them because I hail from St. Louis,
Missouri. And of course it used to be said, with regard to that city and many
other cities, that urban renewal meant negro removal. That kind of situation is
not unique to Zimbabwe. In Senegal as we speak, there been tens of thousands of
Africans who have been displaced because of a civil conflict there reaches back
25 years. It has barely registered a blip on the international press screen. So
yes, those situations that are referred to in Zimbabwe are quite tragic and
they need to be criticized as well as other analogous situations. And when
those analogous situations are not criticized, it basically provides fodder for
those who would like to downplay the situation in Zimbabwe.
AMY GOODMAN: Professor Horace Campbell, we
just have about 30 seconds, your response and your summary?
HORACE CAMPBELL: My response is that the
government of Senegal, the government of Cameroon does not represent itself as
a liberation government. The
Zimbabwean government is very aware of the racism that exists in North America.
And it is exploiting that racism and the antiracist sentiment among Africans in
the west in order to legitimize its repression on the people. The government of
Zimbabwe at this moment is illegitimate we must avoid war at all costs. Mugabe
says only god can remove him and he will go to war. At present, he is at war
with the Zimbabwe people and we must end the silence in the progressive and
pan-African community against this type of manipulation and repression in the
name of liberation.
AMY GOODMAN: We will leave it there. Professor Horace Campbell of
Syracuse University and Professor Gerald Horne of Houston University, thank you
for joining us. That does it for today's show, if you want a copy of the show
go to democracynow.org.